KarlderEinfaeltige schrieb am 23.05.2024 15:39:
Raistlin666 schrieb am 23.05.2024 14:49:
Danke Frau Erler, das Sie das eigentliche Problem des Telefonats benennen, nämlich wer der nächste Präsident werden sollte (Jazeniuk) und es später dann ja auch wurde.
Ich finde es unerträglich das in 90% der Fälle in denen über das Telefonat gesprochen wird immer das "Fuck the EU" im Vordergrund steht, während Jazenuik gar nicht erwähnt wird.
Na ja, der Kontext des Telefonats ist auch nicht ganz irrelevant: Am 25. Januar machte Janukowytsch den Oppositionspolitikern Arsenij Jazenjuk und Vitali Klitschko ein Angebot: Jazenjuk sollte Ministerpräsident und Klitschko Vize-Ministerpräsident in einem neuen Kabinett unter Präsident Janukowytsch werden.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/26/ukraine-president-concessions-protests-violence
"After several hours of discussions on Saturday, it was announced that Yanukovych had offered the prime minister's job to Arseny Yatsenyuk, of jailed former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko's Fatherland party. He also offered a deputy prime minister post to Vitali Klitschko, a former heavyweight boxer, and promised public debates with him."Das heißt, es ging um einen Ministerpräsidenten Jazenjuk bzw. Vize-Ministerpräsidenten Klitschko in einem Kabinett unter einem Präsidenten Janukowytsch, also nicht um einen "Regime-Wechsel".
Paul D’Anieri: Ukraine and Russia. From Civilized Divorce to Uncivil War. Cambridge University Press, 2023, ISBN 978-1-00-931554-8, S. 216.
"When Yanukovych, in January 2014, sought a compromise that would bring leaders of opposition parties into the government, the United States strove to get the opposition leaders to go along and was trying to bring in others, including the UN, to encourage this. The United States hoped that Arseniy Yatseniuk, rather than Vitaliy Klitschko, would become the new prime minister, apparently due to Yatseniuk’s greater economic expertise. It also wanted to keep the far-right Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok out of the government. Details of the US position were leaked (presumably by Russia) from a cell phone conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. This was much the same deal that the EU foreign ministers sought to negotiate with Yanukovych after the February 18 violence. Despite Nuland’s expletive-laden complaints about the EU, and the tiff that her outburst provoked, the European Union and United States were advancing compatible positions that would have kept Yanukovych in power."Maria Popova, Oxana Shevel: Russia and Ukraine. Entangled Histories, Diverging States. Polity Press, 2024, ISBN 978-1-5095-5737-0, S. 154
"A phone call leaked in early February, where Nuland and US Ambassador Pyatt discuss preference for Yatseniuk over the other leaders of the opposition, Klitchko and Tyahnybok, to join a new Yanukovych cabinet on account of Yatseniuk’s perceived stronger economic and governing experience, shows American endorsement of Yanukovych’s continued rule, not a plan to end it."
Wenn du jetzt noch schlüssig darlegen könntest, warum die USA in Person von Frau Nuland und Herrn Pyatt überhaupt ein Mitspracherecht in dieser innerukrainischen Angelegenheit haben sollten (denn die Maßnahmen eine bestimmte Konstellation der Beteiligten herbeizuführen war der zentrale Punkt dieses Telefonats), wäre ich dir sehr verbunden.
Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?
Pyatt: No. I think... I mean that's what he proposed but I think, just knowing the dynamic that's been with them where Klitschko has been the top dog, he's going to take a while to show up for whatever meeting they've got and he's probably talking to his guys at this point, so I think you reaching out directly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn't like it.